VW 16V HEAD - tako in drugace

[eugene]

Jep. Tudi moje srce pravi tako. Moj sanjski mlin za enko je 1.6 ali 1.7(večji bati isti hod) 16V z portano oettingerjevo glavo ITB ji in internaljami da se zvrti na 9000 obratov. Verjetno tudi blizu 200 konjem.
Jurtz imaš link do te beštje?

[Jurtz]

Seveda! Slikco imaš kar v mojem avatarju... drugač pa: slabih 40k EUR, pa je tvoj

Volkswagen Golf II GTI 1.8 16V Gruppe A
http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx? ... os&asrc=fa

Original VW Motorsport zadeva, vožena na rallyjih za svetovno prvenstvo do leta '89.

[eugene]

VW 16v head:
The VW 16v head is a performance nightmare. I think VW introduced the
head merely to say they had one, as they obviously didn't care about
performance when they designed it. VW began design of the 16v head
about 1980. It went through various metamorphasizing phases before
it was released. On one version, the exhaust cam was gear driven,
but VW ultimately chose chain drive because it was the quietest way
to drive the exhaust cam. (The quietest way they would consider;
they obviously chose not to allow the exhaust cam to be belt driven
with the same timing belt as the intake cam...which would have been
the quietest by far.) According to my sources, VW was planning to
introduce the head as early as 1984-85, and some 80000 units were
produced. Then it was discovered that some engineer forgot to design
water in the casting around a pair of exhaust valves. Overheat =
cracked head ==> junk 80000 castings <==> put the program back a
couple of years.

Before the head came out, rumors were circulating as to its design
characteristics. All of us in the high performance business cringed
at what we heard. We heard that VW had designed the head with the
exhaust valves top dead center over the combustion chamber; the
intake valves cocked over about 20 degrees. We said if that was true,
the head was junk. We couldn't believe VW (read that ANYBODY) would
introduce a high performance head with such awful flow characteristics.

When I saw my first 16v head (off the motor), all my nightmares turned
into reality. Actually, it was worse than I thought. The exhaust valves
were top dead center, but the exhaust ports exceeded a 90 degree bend
to allow the gas to exit. This head was obviously not designed for
performance. The valves spacing is too close together, thus putting
in bigger valves would be near impossible. The only possibility of
obtaining higher performance was porting and polishing.

_______
Aftermarket 16v heads:

There are three aftermarket heads that I know of. Of which, only two
can I review - as the third I don't even know the manufacturers name.

Oettinger:
Oettinger has long been considered the venerable 16v head manufacturer
for water cooled VW motors. They have been making the head about 8
years. For the most part, it is a good design. But like the VW head,
it wasn't designed for racing, just a little high performance.

The head is a two piece head, with the cam housing as one piece, and
the combustion chamber/valve housing as another piece. The intake
and exhaust valves meet the combustion chamber at approximately
30 degrees. The ports for the valves meet approximately 75 degrees
with the combustion chamber. This isn't so good for racing, but is
adequate for street use, and immeasurably better than VW's own head.
The exhaust cam is driven via gear from the intake cam, and it is
a cross flow head.

Oettinger went through some pain and expense to make the head California
street legal. The kit they offered was based on a 1588cc motor. It
had 10:1 compression ratio, and all the parts necessary to put the motor
together. It cost $5500.00 and developed 136hp. (Remember $5500 is NOT
a complete motor, just the cost of the kit.)

Drake:
It isn't well known that Drake Engineering also makes a 16v head for the
VW. Drake never marketed the head for street use, and instead chose to
develop it for racing only. Since Drake is a racing company with a long
history of development, they weren't afraid to engineer a head that
had no performance compromises.

The head is also a two piece head. But unlike the Oettinger, the
Drake head afforded all the creature comforts that make working on
a motor real nice. For example, head bolts: The openings in the
cam housing were designed to be big enough for the head bolt tool
(10mm 12point socket) to fit in, but smaller than the heads of the
head bolts. What this means is that (picture the head attached to
the block) when the head bolts are loosened, the head lifts itself
away from the block. No prying or hitting with a rubber mallet.
Another byproduct, is that the head bolts made a convenient stand
for the head; thus the valves could NEVER get bent by setting the
head down.

Intake and exhaust valve ports are 21 degrees with respect to the
combustion chamber, and the valves themselves are approximately half
that. This is the ultimate performance design for ports. Practically
a straight shot into the combustion chamber. Because of the port
design, the head is slightly wider than Oettinger or VW, but is thin
enough to work on a street motor.

Austrian 16v:
There is a company in Austria that makes a VW 16v head also...but I know
nothing about it.

16v performance review:
The VW head is junk for racing or high performance. I have little regard
for this head at all. For 8v owners, you are best to build the motor
you have now, as you can get MORE performance out of it, than VW's 16v.

For comparison, I will give specs for both 8 and 16v performance heads:
Motor Cam HP Induction
8v 1781cc .426 130 @ 6500 Fuel injection
8v 1805cc .496 178 @ 8000 1 Weber 45 DCOE
8v 1977cc .475 185 @ 7500 2 Mikuni 44pph
8v 1588cc .500 210 @ 9000 Hilborne F/i (supervee motor)
8v 1588cc .410 145 @ ? 8# boost Callaway turbo
8v 1588cc .410 165 @ ? 11# boost Callaway turbo
8v 1781cc .423 175 @ ? 11# boost Callaway turbo

16v 1588cc ? 136 @ 6500 2 Mikuni 44pph (Oettinger 16v)
16v 1588cc ? 178 @ 7000 2 Mikuni 44pph (Drake 16v)
16v 1781cc ? 123 @ ? KE Jetronic (VW 16v stock)
16v 1781cc ? 140 @ ? KE Jetronic (High performance version)

Racing 16v's:
2021cc 210 DIN VW 16v
2021cc 225 DIN Oettinger 16v
1935cc 295 SAE Drake 16v

Who's head performs best? The results are obvious. I will admit that
my specs for racing 16v's for Oettinger and VW were taken from printed
literature. That's not to say that more power isn't possible (but
I doubt it!).


Until next time.


--
"Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only." Mat. 4:10
Robert Collins of Sykes Systems, Inc.

[eugene]

Iz tu:
http://www.icelord.net/vw/upgrades/collins_1.html
http://www.icelord.net/vw/upgrades/collins_2.html
http://www.icelord.net/vw/upgrades/collins_3.html
http://www.icelord.net/vw/upgrades/collins_4.html
http://www.icelord.net/vw/upgrades/collins_5.html

[eugene]

Ej Skul kaj ta motor je iz compija?
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=18771&page=5

[eugene]

In še tema o Oettiger/Drake/Graf ventilerjih.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3448807

[Jurtz]

eugene: neki mi ne gre v glavo...

16v 1781cc ? 123 @ ? KE Jetronic (VW 16v stock)
16v 1781cc ? 140 @ ? KE Jetronic (High performance version)

katere motorje je mel tuki v mislih?
KE Jetronic vbrizg je mel PL motor, ki je mel 95kW/129HP...od kje njemu 123?, pol pa pride še KR, ki je mel stock 102kW/139HP kar je enako njegovi high performance verziji?!
Pa še Oettinger... a ni mel že stock 136HP, tam mu piše da je to z mikuniji? e nebi pol to moglo konkretno več znest? al sm narobe razumu? Uglavnem neki mi ni tuki...

[$küll]

Ej Skul kaj ta motor je iz compija?
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=18771&page=5

zelo podoben, malenjkost močnejši, ampak v bistvu je to to...

[Vičo]

@ Jurtz: američani niso imeli KR (niti ABF) motorja, v njihovem GTi 16Vju je bil 9A motor (trojke pa VR6).
Pa na tiste številke o konjih se ni kaj preveč za obešat (a nimajo Amerikanci drugačnih standardov ko mi? DIN, SAE, pa te fore? Kaj pa tiste finte, na kolesih/gredi?) So bolj številke samo za malo primerjat serijsko/predelano.

[Vičo]

Ej Skul kaj ta motor je iz compija?
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=18771&page=5

zelo podoben, malenjkost močnejši, ampak v bistvu je to to...

A ni tvoj motor v Compiju u bistvu isti kot VWjev 9A, 100 kW? Bil v corradotih, passatih?

[$küll]

ja, samo eugene je imel v mislih compije ki so dirkali, ne tiste ki se vozijo po cestah.

tej za na cesto imajo 103kw.

[eugene]

Ja jurtz nekako kot je vičo obrazložu. Ja skull z dirkalnika sem mislu. Kolko konjev so meli?

Čisto sem padu notri v te 16 V. Point je v temu da VW 16V glave niso lih najboljše zasnove (z performance vidika). Nekako kot je v tistem članku opisano. Je pa tip delal pri drake_u tako da neki hvale na svoj račun je normalno.

Graf je pa očitno ultimate. To so neki avstrijci delali in je redko ko diamanti. Včeraj sem prvič zasledil. Kaj ve kdo kaj več o tem?

Graf 16V VW head, Graf pistons, Carrillo rods and Graf(?) headers with
extra long primaries. Claimed 315bhp from 1700cc .

Lej to kak dolg kolektor


Hm bo treba še eno temo o atmosferskih 16V.

[eugene]

Oettinger 5-valve head, from 1989....

[super98]

ej fantje v krčmi smo...mal smo ga zabluzili

prosim kakšnega od modov naj odpre temo o VW 16V motorjih pa vse tja prestavimo in tam nadaljujemo...

drugače pa zanimiva tema, veliko novih informacij (jaz sem vedel samo za oettinger-ja)

[$küll]

je blo več verzij compi motorjev, so pa vsi bli okoli 280hp.

[Jurtz]

aha, zdej je vse jasno...

eugene: kaj to od Graf-a se da kje kej dobit? si kej na ebayu zasledil?

[eugene]

Še o grafu:
________________
This is a head that was used on a vw 1.7L in the early 80's before vw had its own 16v. It was originally used in f3 racing but a few raced them in mk1 golfs/rabbits. There are very few in existence and none known running. The head I have has no cams and I'm trying find out how to get some or where to get some made but I have no specs on them. I have heard they are based on older Fiat cams and looking at the the heads they are similar.



_____________
Just a bit of history. I know the setup comes from Austria and there is thought to only be 5 in existence.
____________
...used in rallycross /f2 racing in the early 80's...
____________
It could be a Lancia type head but from what I have read/heard it may in fact be a Fiat twin 8v cam head as the cam gears needed to run it for a vw are 8v's. I've seen a pic of I think a Fiat twin cam head from 1980 and the heads look very similar but I cant find a good close up shot with the rockers off.

Iz tu:http://retrorides.proboards86.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=38926

Torej jurtz. Če je mogoče še dobit oettingerjevo glavo je grafovo skoraj nemogoče. Drake-ove so tudi redkost in še verjetno samo v usa. In drake imajo obrnjen auspuh in vsis (spredaj zadaj) , ker so ble originalno namenjene za formulo vee f3 al neki takega.

Hm mogoče pa se da eno nardit iz fiatove.


Še slik:

[eugene]

[BureK]

ni ga cez 20vT

[eugene]

za oettigejevo glavo sem zasledu 235cfm@28-ni siguren podatek. in še da naj bi oettigerjeva glava v orignal obliki tekla tolko kot dobro sportana vw16v. Z 25-30% manjšimi porti- kar pomeni večjo hitrost, kar je dobro. Zdaj 1cfm naj bi zadoščal za 1Hp ali več v NA.

[Jurtz]

to govorimo o oettingerjevi iz mk1 16s?

[eugene]

jep. V osnovi je samo ena glava. razlika med tisto za starejše 8v bloke in novejše je minimalna in bale samo v tistem drugem oljnem kanalu iz bloka v glavo.

Različni kolektorji izpušni zgoraj in sesalni spodal desno od glave . za starejše bloke (anakonda varjanta) in za noveše ( zvit navzdol)

votla(oljena odmična) in nastavljiv zobnik:

Vsis

izpuh


komora (4 quench območja)


kulturen kot med kanalom in ventili na vsisu


Iz tu:http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2124668&page=1

[Jurtz]

ta topic sem že pregledal ja... dost robe ima tip.

[WOB]

Še VW Motosport izpušni kolektor za 16V (Golf 3 kit car) čim bolj ravno, sam škoda ker pri G1 to ni mogoče izvest

tukaj se bolj slabo vidi, ampak gre skori na ravnost

pa še ena bolj slaba, ki sm jo skopiral iz homologacije

[Jurtz]

še dobr de ne paše ... če bi kej takega dajal u enko, ti bi sam odpihlno tisto streho

p.s.: a u dvojko bi šlo?